refit issues

including Amas (Floats), Akas (Beams) , Swing Wing system and all other hull related issues.
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Baboonty
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 27 Apr 10, 8:13
Your Country: France/boat in Spain (Barcelona)

refit issues

Post by Baboonty »

I am in a refit process of my DF 1000 and got several items to change or repair. I need your expertise on some specific issues:

Do you know if the four beam hinges are symmetrical (front-rear and port-starboard)?
the front ones work loose and the starboard one has approximately a 5mm side movement generating loud noise inside and making folding system quite difficult.
I read the previous posts on this topic and wondering what is the best way to correct this.

I also expect to change the full folding lines. What are the specifications of the metal wire and the lengh of the dyneema swingwing line? the manual mention 13 m, do we really need such a lengh?

What is the weight of an ama? How many people are required to take it down?

Does anyone got instructions (or a picture) of the good way to store a DF 1000 on the ground?
I've never seen one on a cradle and mine will have soon to spend a couple of weeks on the shipyard.

Thanks for your help
Double Horizon
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed 09 May 07, 0:18
Your Country: USA

Re: refit issues

Post by Double Horizon »

Answers in bold blue:
Please note I corrected some estimated measurements after my initial post.
Baboonty wrote:I am in a refit process of my DF 1000 and got several items to change or repair. I need your expertise on some specific issues:

Do you know if the four beam hinges are symmetrical (front-rear and port-starboard)?
Port-starboard = yes

the front ones work loose and the starboard one has approximately a 5mm side movement generating loud noise inside and making folding system quite difficult.
I read the previous posts on this topic and wondering what is the best way to correct this.
Have not done this -- others can answer

I also expect to change the full folding lines. What are the specifications of the metal wire and the lengh of the dyneema swingwing line? the manual mention 13 m, do we really need such a lengh?
yes
What is the weight of an ama? How many people are required to take it down?
I never weighed one, but have carried them. One reasonably strong adult male person at each end can carry it. I would estimate each ama is less than 100 kilos. If mounting or de-mounting them you should get assistance from a fork lift or sling them with a small crane.

Does anyone got instructions (or a picture) of the good way to store a DF 1000 on the ground?
I've never seen one on a cradle and mine will have soon to spend a couple of weeks on the shipyard.

The factory cradle supports the boat with one padded post on the nearly-flat solid fiberglass surrounding each CENTER hull waterstay attachment point. The pads are (from my memory) about 10cm x24cm. Only those 4 points are supported. If you don't have the cradle to support those points you should put your main supports under the centerboard trunk with bracing taking up as much weight as possible at the waterstay attachment areas. You can also brace near the centerlines along the hulls but do not put full weight there.

The hulls are cored almost everywhere but the following areas where they are solid layup: Centerboard trunk, cross-beam attachments, centerlines within about 15cm of centerline. If you brace anywhere else you run the risk of crushing core and/or piercing the hull. Lift only from the center hull. Do NOT lift the boat by the amas -- severe damage may result. If lifting with a sling you should run the sling around only the main hull, letting the amas hang free. If you support the amas on land you should only do it with the idea of preventing downward movement from snow/ice loads -- not to support the center hull.

Thanks for your help
Last edited by Double Horizon on Wed 22 Sep 10, 22:42, edited 5 times in total.
Larry - Former Owner DF-1200
gminkovsky
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

...the front ones work loose and the starboard one has approximately a 5mm side movement generating loud noise inside and making folding system quite difficult...

I have this problem with loud noise on my 920. I spent a year(!) investigating it. It appears to be caused by the movement in the hinge and the elongation of the hole on the aka's side of the hinge.

There are a few things that can be done:
1. buy a complete hinge from Quorning and just replace.
2. remove the hinge and have an expert welder weld a correctly sized piece of stainless steel with the right size hole right on top of the hinge. In fact, newer DF's came with the additional welded peice.
3. the noise can be substantially minimized by reducing tension in the backstays - this is what we do at anchor
4. adjust the retainer bolt inside the main hull that stops the aka from moving forward. This helps minimize movement.

However, 5 mm movement seems too much. I would just replace the whole hinge. On my boat the movement is about 1 mm.
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

The hinge issue is a pretty easy fix. I did mine a few years ago.
Took the better part of a day to do all four. I think the planning for the "operation" took longer!
First off, carefully measure the size of the elongated hole in the hinge.
Then go and get a few custom made drill bits - I used two but ordered four!
Just do a search on the net for custom made drill bits - you will not find them in Lowes or Home Depot.
Next I had the pins, again custom made from Colligo Marine. Talk to John there and he will make up whatever size you need. I think they were about $75.00 each. He sent design drawings prior to making the pins.
The hulls swing very easily now and the wobble is gone!
When you do go to drill out the hinges it will take a little maneuvering of the ammas and beams to keep it all lined up. That included releasing the backstays to take the pressure off the ammas and bracing the amma from below. This was by far the hardest part, lining it all up.
Do one at a time and it helps not to remove the old pin entirely. Drill the bottom while the old pin hold the top and then reverse the operation.

Like I said, not a hard job. Just take your time and do your homework first.

Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Lining up the holes in the hinges for reassembly

Post by Steve B. »

I had the hinge holes rewelded and redrilled.

When it came to reassembly (in the water) I got my wife and a corpulent friend of hers to walk out on the aka while I attempted to reposition the hinge bolt. It was a little trial and error to fold/unfold the boat and ask them to walk out/in the aka until the holes lined up perfectly.
One step at a time until...Success!!
gminkovsky
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed 01 Nov 06, 19:58
Your Country: USA, Long Island Sound

Post by gminkovsky »

Steve,
How did you keep your boat together while the hinges were being re-welded and re-drilled?
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Keeping it together

Post by Steve B. »

I took off and repaired one at a time.
Boat was mostly folded at my dock.
(I have no swell or wave action do deal with)
I used a short piece of line to hold the hinge end against the hull.
Mika Harju
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 13:19
Your Country: Finland, Turku

Re: refit issues

Post by Mika Harju »

Baboonty wrote: Does anyone got instructions (or a picture) of the good way to store a DF 1000 on the ground?
I've never seen one on a cradle and mine will have soon to spend a couple of weeks on the shipyard.

Thanks for your help
Take a look at these:
http://www.dragonfly-trimarans.org/phpB ... c.php?t=20

http://www.dragonfly-trimarans.org/phpB ... .php?t=353
Mika Harju
DF1000 Racing #8
Baboonty
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 27 Apr 10, 8:13
Your Country: France/boat in Spain (Barcelona)

Post by Baboonty »

thanks to all for your helpful answers.

I ordered oversized 18mm bolts to quorning (original are 16mm).
Nicolai told me I can not use a regular drill bit when it can not centre in a oval hole. Normally they make the holes bigger with a rotating file and a hand file.
Works will be done this winter while the engine is changed for a bigger one.
Steve B.
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 06, 1:58
Your Country: USA, Whidbey Island WA

Correcting slop in the hinges

Post by Steve B. »

If I need to redo my hinges again, I'll install ss sleeves with an inside diameter the same as the outside diameter of the pins.
These will be welded to the hinge flanges to give the pins more area to carry the load, thus greatly lowering the wear factor.
Baboonty
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 27 Apr 10, 8:13
Your Country: France/boat in Spain (Barcelona)

Post by Baboonty »

you're right Steve, if the hinges got more thickness they would last much longer.
tpaliwoda
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri 03 Nov 06, 3:05
Your Country: USA, Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, New Jersey

Post by tpaliwoda »

I did this project a few years ago, and it will take forever to enlarge those holes with a file!
Get a good cordless drill with a lot or torque, a custom made drill bit (get several) and use a lot of cutting oil.
The drill bit has to be a mm larger than the pin size you are replacing with.
The one I used was 23/32" (good luck finding that at Home Depot).
That happened to be a mm larger than the pin size I replaced with.
We went through two drill bits doing all eight holes!

Worked like a charm.

Ted
Ted Paliwoda
D'Fly 1000 ; HN #1
Nice Tri
Raritan YC, Perth Amboy, NJ, USA
Baboonty
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 27 Apr 10, 8:13
Your Country: France/boat in Spain (Barcelona)

Post by Baboonty »

I got m'y new 18mm bolds ordered to quorning, I am surprised to find a side safety screw on thé lower part of the pins.
Is it normal? I have to say I have never taken down these bolds on my boat...
Baboonty
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 27 Apr 10, 8:13
Your Country: France/boat in Spain (Barcelona)

Post by Baboonty »

I got the answer from Quorning, now the bolts use the same system of the 920, bolts are pushed in from the top and the side locking screw is then secured with loctite.

I feel more confident with this improvement.
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